Another Clone

is there a new Clone in MGS4 cause i saw a young snake in this tralier ages ago but in the most recent trailer Solid snake or old snake is shown becoming young by some means so it could be him right and Kojima's just messing with our heads right? User:Captain-One

Yeah, probably. A new clone seems doubtful at best. --Fantomas 16:15, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
with a look at this trailer;flv;0;0;315;4;0&game=Metal-Gear-Solid-4%3A-Guns-of-the-Patriots i think it's still solid snake (have a look at 1:23). maybe it's because that foxdie works different on him or anything else, i'm just guessing --User:Soeckchen
Have you seen the latest theatrical trailer? Watch carefully. I think that pretty much clears this whole thing up to be honest, but let's not shut the door on it completely. There's still a lot about MGS4 we don't know. --Fantomas 21:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Agreed User:Captain-One
Well, guys, it's not another Les Enfants Terrible clone. Actually, it's Snake using the Facecamo he got from Laughing Octopus to make himself seem younger during Third Sun. However, there were technically other Les Enfants Terribles children besides Liquid, Solid, and Solidus, as revealed in the Novelization. However, they were considered failures, and they were from eight different batches. I don't know exactly what the eight/sixteen/whatever clones fates are. However, if they are still even alive, they would most likely be ordinary members of the Military, if not in intensive care. Weedle McHairybug 19:30, December 20, 2009 (UTC)
These posts are over a year and a half old... --Fantomas 22:44, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

Recessive / dominant genes

I just don't get it...

First, genes are not recessive or dominant, alleles are (eye color is a gene, blue is a recessive allele for the eye color gene and brown is a dominant one).

Second, if Liquid Snake carries all the dominant alleles, then he should be just like Big Boss ! Or at least he should be closer to Big Boss than Solidus !

Video Game Logic. Forget science. Imagine that BB is Purple. The Red is strong, and the Blue is weak, but they are both elements of Purple. Liquid gets all Red, Solid gets all Blue, and Solidus, a perfect clone, gets all Purple. That's why, though probably not part of the original 1972 part of the LET project, Solidus looks so old. He's a photocopy of BB. -- K-o-D, 27 June 2008
Exactly! K-o-D has it right on! We can only assume that genes in the MGS world work differently or something. We have it listed as "Solid = Recessive, Liquid = Dominant" because that is how it is told to us in the games.
You really think so ? I mean everything is nearly perfect in the game and I think it's a big flaw in the scenario especially because science could explain differences between clones. I learned about genes and alleles in high school and it's pretty simple. If it was something really hard to understand, it would have beel normal to simplfy it a little bit.
No, Liquid had the recessive allelos, but he was only made to believe that his recessive allelos were inferior. It's very likely that Liquid was manipulated by Ocelot, Solidus, or even Big Boss himself to believe that his recessive allelo are inferior in the sense that they are less useful or even detrimental in combat or survival situations. The truth is that Solid had the dominant allelos/genes (that's the reason why he looks like Naked Snake/Big Boss and Liquid doesn't), but those dominant genes are inferior, meanwhile Liquid had the superior, but recessive allelos/genes. Besides it is never said anywhere in any Metal Gear game that Solid had the recessive genes and Liquid the dominant genes, only that Solid was the inferior clone. -Burning Angel, 6 November 2008
  • Liquid is the dominant clone. Let's explain this by example:

    In an individual, dominant alleles are ones that 'cover up' other alleles. Imagine it in terms of a painting; it has two sides, but only the side that isn't facing the wall is actually seen; anything could be on the back, provided it can't bleed through to the front it doesn't really matter.

    Now, let's say we decide we have the most perfect painting in the world, and we want to copy it. We don't care about what's on the back [the recessive side] because it doesn't show; we care about the part we can see. Now, what Les Enfants Terribles did was pointless, sure; basically, they took two copies of this painting, and made them into one with two fronts [the dominant clone] and one with two backs [the recessive clone]. This is pointless, since you still only need one front and the back doesn't matter as long as it isn't showing through, but the goal is still met; the dominant one is like the original and therefore, by our estimation, a perfect painting, while the recessive one is nothing like our goal, and therefore trash.

    Bear in mind, Liquid is not supposed to be speaking in universal terms; he's saying the dominant and recessive traits are respectively superior and flawed with respect to the Les Enfants Terribles project's goals; those goals define 'superior' as 'like Big Boss' and 'flawed' as 'not like Big Boss.' As a result, it is absolutely, perfectly true that as far as LET is concerned, the dominant alleles are superior.

    Any recessive trait in Big Boss' genome would be something that didn't make him; in an individual, if the alleles are double-recessive the net result is neither allele is recessive in the phenotype, because neither covers up the other; the alleles are only regarded as recessive in terms of a breeding population, and we don't have a breeding population of Big Bosses. It doesn't matter in that organism if it's double-dominant or double-recessive with respect to other alleles, because that organism does not have those alleles; in both cases, there is no dominance if neither allele is overriden by the other. Therefore, if any of Big Boss' soldier traits ended up in the recessive clone, they'd have to also be recessive in him and he would not posess those traits himself! Evil Tim 06:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
    • The key concept of dominance is that the heterozygote is phenotypically identical to one of the two homozygotes, which shows which of the two alleles is designated ‘dominant’. It is critical to understand that dominance is a genotypic relationship between alleles, as manifested in the phenotype. It is unrelated to the nature of the phenotype itself, e.g, whether it is regarded as ‘normal or abnormal,’ ‘standard or non-standard,’ ‘healthy or diseased’, ‘stronger or weaker’, or ‘more or less’ extreme. Hence Liquid not the dominante clone, but the superior clone. By superior I mean that his genes are "stronger/healthier" better suited for combat and survival (soldier genes). But meanwhile, Solid Snake has Big Boss' dominante genes; that's the reason Solid looks more like Big Boss than Liquid - Marcaurelix
      • Just to explain this: L-E-T had determined already what a "stronger" allele was; if Big Boss expressed it, it was stronger. As a result, Big Boss' dominant alleles must have been what the project regarded as superior, otherwise Big Boss himself would not have actually expressed the traits that made him a superior soldier in the first place. The recessive alleles can't be the good ones or they wouldn't have been expressed in Big Boss' phenotype. By the project's reasoning, the clone most like Big Boss was the superior one. Therefore, the clone with the dominant traits (and therefore with Big Boss' phenotype) was the superior one. Of course, it breaks down when you try to make sense of why they didn't just clone Big Boss since it's not like taking the recessive traits out of his genome would actually do anything; the whole point of a fully recessive trait is you don't express it, after all. Evil Tim 18:25, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
Please, please, please stop trying to liken gene's in MGS to Gene's in real life. Liquid: made from Big Boss' dominant/superior genes, Solid: made from Big Boss' recessive/inferior genes. That is what the game provides us with to keep it simple, and that is the end of it. --Fantomas 18:56, January 27, 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough - Marcaurelix

Super-soldiers or Physical Peak?

I know this might be a stupid question, but I've always had this question since I first played Metal Gear 2 : Solid Snake. Are the Solid Snake, Liquid Snake and Solidus superhuman or just at their peak physical? HavenLuvsTheRage (talk) 06:18, November 4, 2012 (UTC)

They are at their physical peak, though they are often shown performing insane stunts and having extreme survivability for cinematic reasons, which are common in the action film genre that inspired Metal Gear. You could call them "super soldiers," but they are not intended to be superhuman. --Bluerock (talk) 11:47, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
Oh, makes sense. Thank you :) HavenLuvsTheRage (talk) 21:53, November 4, 2012 (UTC)

About the whole coma thing...

Is it just me, or has the hype for MGS5 pushed the date of the LET project up a bit?

MGS4 says that Big Boss wasn't a willing participant, and MGS1 says he was in a coma.  However, MGS1 also pegs the birth of the "Sons of Big Boss" (meaning Solid and Liquid Snake; Solidus hadn't been written in yet) at 1972, which would be midway between Portable Ops and Peace Walker.  Big Bosses coma, according to the MGS5 hype, is from 1975-1984, according to the timeline agreed upon here.

It seems odd to me that Big Boss would be in a mysterious coma halfway between the two games (and to have no mention of said coma in Peace Walker), and then have a much longer period in which Big Boss would be totally at the mercy of scientists working on the LET project for the Patriots.  So is the timeline getting retconned, or what?  (It's too bad the writing in MGS isn't a bit tighter - it's a damn good story, but all the retcons make it tough to keep one's facts straight.

There was no coma. The whole coma myth is actually presented by Liquid in MGS1, however it is only in the English version. The line of dialogue from the Japanese actually translates to: "But an injury father sustained in combat left him sterile. So they created us from his cells… with a combination of 20th century analog cloning and the Super Baby Method." Kojima never put any instance of a coma in, and has been using what he wrote as a basis for things that came later, creating this contradiction for the western audience. The injury has seemingly been retconned into radiation from testing at bikini atoll. So as you can see, there is no mysterious coma and never has been, it's just an error in localisation.--Soul reaper (talk) 09:19, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

Questionable Information

In the Les Enfants Terrible page, it is stated that Solidus was made to age faster so that the Patriots could keep Big Boss as an icon for the organization as a U.S. President. This isn't explicitly stated anywhere in the games. Only that the organization needed a stand-in for Big Boss at some point. By the time Solidus was president in 2005, Big Boss had already been a famous mercenary, even to the general public. Furthermore, he was the acting president of the world's only nuclear superpower in 1999 (The fact that Zanzibar Lans is the only active nuclear superpower is stated in the opening cinematic of Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake.) This would grant him a lot of notoriety. Finally, Liquid Snake demands Big Boss' body from George Sears during the events of Metal Gear Solid.

That being said, I find it highly unlikely that Solidus was cloned simply to be the president in the image of Big Boss. Big Boss would definitely be known as an antagonist in 2005. I would at least like the information to reflect this ambiguity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

Hi there. Just a few pointers for future edits. There's no need to bold your comments, and headings should be enclosed by "==". Also, remember to sign comments with four tildes (~).
Getting to your point, you're absolutely correct. Nowhere is it stated that Solidus was deliberately made to age faster, nor that he was always intended to be made President, so the article does need changing to address this. I will make a few edits to both this and Solidus's articles to address this. --Bluerock (talk) 13:55, January 18, 2015 (UTC)
Pretty much agree with the bit about accelerated aging being faster in Solidus' case (Solidus did imply some deliberance when giving his motive rant to Raiden, but it wasn't made clear whether it was for it being much faster in rate or if it was the accelerated aging itself). Can't say I agree with the removal of the Patriots intending for him to be president. Considering how ballistic they get when they don't get their way in even the most miniscule manner (something Otacon even explicitly stated in Act 1 regarding trusting Drebin 893, to say little regarding their overall behavior during most of the Big Shell Incident, as well as their implied anger over the results of the Shadow Moses Incident, enough that they not only forced Solidus to resign, but they even went as far as to try and have him assassinated over his role in bungling the Incident.), I find it hard to believe that they didn't intend for Solidus to become president at all, or even decide at the last minute to not give Solidus the presidency. Not to mention that James Johnson made pretty clear that all Presidential elections, at least since the Patriots were formed, were all rigged to ensure that their "puppets" won, so I really think we should add that bit about the presidency back in. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 14:49, January 18, 2015 (UTC)
Re-read my comment:
"Nowhere is it stated that Solidus [...] was always intended to be made President..."
When the Patriots made the decision is unclear. The article implied they did so before Solidus was even born, giving rise to the myth of giving him increased accelerated age. They still made him President in the end, and the article still notes that they did. --Bluerock (talk) 15:36, January 18, 2015 (UTC)

Helpful diagram

Hey fellow Wikians,

Recently, I've been working on a diagram to help demonstrate how the clones of Les Enfants Terribles were created, based on the information from the games (as shown here). I believe this would greatly assist in understanding the mechanics behind the cloning process to any visitors to the Wiki, who may be unfamiliar with the backstory, and where the text might not illustrate it as clearly.

Does anyone also think this would be a good addition to the article? I tried to simplify it as best I could, and am interested to know if it displays correctly across different people's internet browsers. Are there any improvements that could be made to it?

I look forward to any feedback. Thanks! --Bluerock (talk)

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