This is not confirmed, going to delete the page.UnitedPhysics (talk) 00:11, August 23, 2015 (UTC)

Posted the information on the Big Boss talk page. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 00:55, August 23, 2015 (UTC)


All this info should be moved back until the game is actually out. Sure the guide heavily hints at this and it's probably true, but we have no official confirmation and the game isn't out yet so that we can check ourselves. This is still speculation. -- Zero-ELEC (talk) 17:35, August 23, 2015 (UTC)

I doubt the guide would not have cited scenes from that game if it was made up. We're keeping it in here. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 17:42, August 23, 2015 (UTC)
I'm not saying they made it up, I'm saying that the guide is not confirmation. Only the game is. The guide may strongly hint at this, but it still not confirmed at all. As much as it is probably super true. This is still speculation, even in the guide it's presented as such. -- Zero-ELEC (talk) 17:49, August 23, 2015 (UTC)
Zero's got it right, none of the info in that section of the guide is really a confirmation, it's not even presented as a confirmation, it's presented as nothing more than speculation, making Venom Snake and Big Boss have separate pages when the two being different beings is not confirmed is totally unnecessary and premature at this time and doing so this early on insisting that it was confirmed and is necessary isn't going to do much but make you look like a fool.Kornflakes89 (talk) 18:12, August 23, 2015 (UTC)
They already cited scenes from the game. And besides, technically, they only didn't confirm whether Ishmael is Big Boss or not (which is only because Kojima Productions and Konami forbade the writers of the guide to actually reveal his identity directly, but that's another topic). When a DNA test failed between Venom Snake and Eli, which they directly cited, and they had Venom Snake being visible in a spy mirror when Ocelot tells Eli that his father "isn't around", that's more than enough confirmation that he's NOT Big Boss. We don't know his identity (ie, we don't know if he's the medic or not), but that doesn't mean we should assume he's Big Boss, since the guide made it pretty explicit in that scene that he's not (failing a DNA test with what is supposed to be your clone is as confirmed as one can possibly get to him not being Big Boss). At least be thankful that I haven't merged Ishmael with Big Boss yet, even if I were able to, since unlike with Venom Snake not being Big Boss, that bit ISN'T confirmed at all, and at least be thankful I didn't merge the stuff about Venom Snake into the medic's article. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 18:18, August 23, 2015 (UTC)
Not even going to bother reading that, it's like talking to a brick wall, nothing you can say can alter the fact that this is premature and shouldn't have been done until the game has been released when we'd know it for absolute fact, Bluerock agrees and said to revert it until the game is released.Kornflakes89 (talk)
Fine. Reverted back to a redirect until the game's launch. But I'm NOT putting the Venom Snake-related material back into the Big Boss article. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 22:01, August 23, 2015 (UTC)
Which was exactly what you were told to do, are you seriously so immature that you'll refuse to do what a mod asked you to do just to satisfy your habit of jumping to conclusions and taking speculation as confirmed facts? It was premature, there is no confirmation that Venom Snake is not Big Boss, therefor the Venom Snake material belongs in the Big Boss page until the game is released and this can be confirmed or denied.Kornflakes89 (talk)
And I did revert. It's back to a redirect to Big Boss's article, right? Well, that's a revert, just as Bluerock said. But that DOESN'T mean I am obligated to place all of those things back on the Big Boss article. And for the record, a failed DNA test = confirmation. It's called common sense. Maybe you should learn it sometime, instead of constantly insisting we get more information, since sometimes things don't need to be said. And BTW, suppose the guide and I are correct and Venom Snake is indeed not Big Boss, what will you do then? I would hope you would actually apologize and actually acknowledge I was right after all those times you constantly called me an idiot, maybe actually acknowledge you were wrong in trying to claim I was wrong, but I would suspect that would not be the case. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 23:10, August 23, 2015 (UTC)
Except that's not how it was before, the Venom Snake info belongs on the Big Boss page until the game is released and Venom being/not being Big Boss can be confirmed with credible, factual proof, not a leaked guide that gives conflicting information. So I should stop insisting that we wait for more information...when the source you're citing to claim this is fact has conflicting statements on the matter? It says that Venom is not Big Boss, but also says that Venom is Big Boss and with said guide having said conflicting statements you're choosing to take the first one as fact and ignoring the second one? If you're not seeing why I'm implying you're not as bright as you say you are after reading (and hopefully understanding) that, then you've got a bad realization that will either hit you like a truck or not at all.

You do know that DNA tests can give false positives/negatives, same as pregnancy tests, drug tests or virus scans, right?

What will I do if Venom is not Big Boss? Nothing, I don't apologize for implying someone isn't very smart when they do and say things that aren't very smart.Kornflakes89 (talk)


>Big Boss' innate desire for conflict, however, was amplified in Venom Snake

Is it? Judging by cut dialogue, he wanted to see future without war conflicts at all

That video has been taken down. GZulu (talk) 23:03, October 3, 2015 (UTC)

Outer Heaven

The ending time line clearly staes Outer Heaven was Big Boss's formation but Phantom died at the hands of Snake. So is it wrong to say Venom opted to form outer heaven

Why does Venom now have Big Boss' MG1 photo? 

SOCOM insisted that the Big Boss in MG1 is not actually Big Boss. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 14:57, September 14, 2015 (UTC)

Height and weight

Just wondering where did this information of his height being "194cm (6'4")" and his weight being "105kg"?Velociraptor90 (talk) 10:58, September 10, 2015 (UTC)

Venom's role in the Outer Heaven uprising

I just registered to say this. This is speculation without any evidence.

"Venom by this stage had taken on Outer Heaven as his own and was deviating from big bosses plans and vision of a military nation without boarders [...] with the true objective of assassinating Venom in order to prevent the world ever discovering he had a phantom and wasn't the one behind all the history venom had created"

Therere is a voice recording in the game that's only available through datamining that completly contradicts this.

The video was removed from youtube but here's the transcript.

"I haven't forgotten what you told me Boss. We have no tomorrow, but there is still hope for the future. In our struggle to survive the present, we push the future further away. Will I see it in my lifetime? Probably not. Which means there is no time to waste. Some day the world will no longer need us, no need for the gun or the hand to pull the trigger. I have to drag out this demon inside me and build a better future. That's what I...heh...what we will leave as our legacy. Another mission, right Boss?"

JoJoFine (talk) 17:25, September 10, 2015 (UTC)

While I completely agree with you (nothing I can see suggests Venom deviated from Big Boss' plan), I don't think we should be concerning ourselves with the datamined message. It's not in the game, potentially for a reason, so we shouldn't concern ourselves with it. --Fantomas (talk) 17:38, September 10, 2015 (UTC)
 The tape where Big Boss says he is proud of Venom is called Indrude N1313 and theres an outer heaven logo on the background so Big Boss didn't think he went into buisnese for him self. 

Idea concerning Venom

Most people currently thing Venom is the Big Boss at the end of MG1. However I just played the mission where you rescue the kids from the mine and somehow just the way Venom acts seems to lean towards the Big Boss in MG2, plus it would make the easter egg conversation about the robtic arm somewhat canon it would just have the infomation about how he got it wrong. I'm not saying this proves anything but as I was watching he way he acted with the kids through the mission and the cutscene at the end it just made me think about how the kids in Zanzibarland seem to like Big Boss so much and how he wanted to protect them, assuming of course I remember MG2 it's been awhile since I played it so I might remember wrong. I was glancing through the guide and noticed that completing the secret mission unlocs the use of Zanzibar for use with your emblem so maybe that could be considered more evidence towards my idea. GrimmShadows (talk) 21:31, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

The timeline at the end of the game confirms Venom was the Big Boss in Metal Gear 1. --Fantomas (talk) 21:50, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Ground Zeroes appearance

Canon or not? Clearly, this is gonna become an issue of contention at some point, so I'm starting a discussion about it so that a consensus can be established. While, we're at it, let's also decide whether to consider the passport canon.

Some comments from the revision history of the article:

His model in Ground Zeroes is a placeholder. There is no "canon" version of who Venom Snake was before the transformation

GZ's medic's face was deliberately obscured, canonically he appeared as each individual player's avatar which obviously could not be retroactively or uniformly shown in GZ.


Even in the unmodified versions of Ground Zeroes, it's pretty obvious from the little we see of his face that he's caucasian.

That's a fake passport. I wouldn't call it reliable. Also, you can see the medic's hair and the side of his face in Ground Zeroes. His hair is brown and his skin is clearly white.

--Bluerock (talk) 21:01, September 21, 2015 (UTC)

The medic may have been caucasian but there is no canon identity for Venom Snake. TPP essentially retcons GZ by replacing the placeholder model with the player's avatar. The whole point is that Venom Snake is meant to represent the player's avatar (Kojima even says so), meaning that any previous appearance he may have had should be treated as non-canon. It's no different than how future games of MGS retconned various details in the past, only this time it happened under the same numerical title. Given the intended nature of Venom Snake's conception and how the medic's appearance was purposefully obscured, his GZ model should be treated as a placeholder with Venom not having an actual "canon" appearance. DementedP (talk) 07:42, September 22, 2015 (UTC)
That also includes the player choosing to make the medic look 30 or 50 in 1975. Someone born in 1932 would not look 30 in 1975. The passport is canon. The problem is it's supposed to be a fake passport for Big Boss. We have no clue where or what year the medic was born.-- 22:00, September 23, 2015 (UTC)
Since the passport uses his real name, photo, and day/month of birth (albeit selected by the player), it would seem to imply that the passport details are indeed those of the medic, even if Big Boss is using it to fake his own identity. With nothing to really dispute this, I think it's fair to assume this is the case. Since he has no canon GZ physical appearance, what age the player makes him look like doesn't seem relevant. Just my opinion anyway. --Bluerock (talk) 10:14, October 7, 2015 (UTC)
I replayed through the Truth mission and grabbed a lot of screen caps for the article, so can I use them? I made the avatar as 'canon' as possible to the medic from GZ. Here's a shot of him in the menu, as well as ingame, which i've added a beard and scars to:
12140645 1013846172009687 3051982434035952936 n
12118982 1013824088678562 6606925082568356661 n

In games like Skyim and other RPG's where the player character is a blank avatar, the wiki pages use the character's default appearance, or whatever was used in promotional material. Since all we've got to go off is the placeholder face (which is pretty detailed), then I suggest we use that. Obviously for things like the passport we can say, 'The name and birthday are up to player discretion', or something like that. Same with whatever face players decide to give him. But for the purposes of this article I suggest we use this model? ThatDamnScottishGuy (talk) 20:15, October 18, 2015 (UTC)
Alright so i've edited the article without adding too much. Hope this pleases both sides of the fence. We have something to represent the pre-decoy Venom, without just uising another random insert as a character. This is about as canon as we'll get. I can edit the images, such as the hospital one further, giving him longer hair like he has post surgery, if you guys want? It'd look better, but it would be a doctored image and i'm not sure what the policy on using those here is. ThatDamnScottishGuy (talk) 21:57, October 18, 2015 (UTC)

Great job at waiting for input before doing it, REALLY great job. 22:06, October 18, 2015 (UTC)

It's not like every change has to be pre-approved. If the everyone dissagrees and wants Venom to remain more anonymous then they can change it. I'm not the only voice here. However with a character as important as this, I figure the more info the better. Also, if anyone wants the sliders for his face so they can take better pictures or just to play as him, message me and i'll give you them :) ThatDamnScottishGuy (talk) 22:16, October 18, 2015 (UTC)


Is he not also Punished? Find it odd that that alias would be left out.

{{SUBST:User:Whathopercy/Sig}} 00:10, September 22, 2015 (UTC)

It's in the alias list in the infobox. I've also restored the name in the intro as "Punished "Venom" Snake", as per the opening credits to each mission. Don't forget to make a new subheading when discussing a different topic to above. --Bluerock (talk) 07:25, September 22, 2015 (UTC)
It's strange that he's never called Punished in the game. At least Ocelot calls him Venom once. -- 13:48, October 7, 2015 (UTC)

Metal Gear 1 Big Boss

Since the Big Boss in MG1 is now retconned to be Venom Snake, shouldn't we delete the picture of him from the Big Boss page and move it to this one? Just a thought. 03:38, October 1, 2015 (UTC)

If you're referring to the infobox image[1], then no, because that specific image taken from the Japanese MG1 manual depicts FOXHOUND commander Big Boss, as noted in the accompanying biography, not Outer Heaven leader Big Boss. I did explain this in the edit summary, when I reverted the previous image move. The only depictions of Venom Snake in MG1 (via retcon) is the 8-bit sprite boss character[2], and possibly the walking cane-holding silhouette among the Outer Heaven mercenaries[3] (also from the Japanese manual). --Bluerock (talk) 09:50, October 7, 2015 (UTC)

Physical appearance circa 1995

If Operation Intrude N313 takes place in 1995, then why does Venom still have the same appearance he had during the events of the phantom pain?-- 00:40, October 7, 2015 (UTC)

The scene should not be taken too literally. The exact time is deliberately vague, and Venom disappears into fog after smashing the mirror. --Bluerock (talk) 09:53, October 7, 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for explaining that scene. -- 13:44, October 7, 2015 (UTC)

Mother Base stats

I know it has Venom's Mother Base stats here, but I've tried finding him in my Mother Base roster to no avail. I can't remember whether or not he was actually in it, and if he was I can't find him in order to get his iDroid portrait. Can anyone confirm or deny his presence in Mother Base's unit roster?

His stats are not listed in the normal staff management feature, only during character selection for the mission sortie prep. --Bluerock (talk) 05:19, October 18, 2015 (UTC)

Which Big Boss was which in Metal Gear?

We all know that the Big Boss that Snake fought and killed was Venom Snake. So its obvious that the original Big Boss was the one who said Snake and him would meet again.

I'm correct in assuming that the Big Boss on the support team was the original Big Boss?

Names with "middle name"

The names of the following pages are.

Venom Snake.

Revolver Ocelot.

Kazuhira Miller.

I know that the main names in the very first paragraph and in their infoboxes have the following:

Punished "Venom" Snake.

Revolver "Shalashaska" Ocelot.

Benedict "Kazuhira" Miller.

While I think this should stay this way for the first paragraph and the infoboxes, I don't think it would be wise to change them to this for the name of the page. Just in case it was being thought of.

I agree and I don't think I've heard about anyone saying this will be changed to suit the names in the first paragraph of each page, so they're likely to stay that way. DementedP (talk) 21:49, October 22, 2015 (UTC)

When was Venom Snake placed in a medically induced coma, when did he awake and when did he receive the "Operation Intrude N313" tape?

According to the Truth tapes, in 1977 Zero asked if Venom had awoken at all in two years. Unless I'm mistaken, people don't naturally awake from a medically induced coma. Doctors bring them out of it which is what Ocelot did in 1984. Also, Ocelot mentions Volgin waking up to the real Big Boss but said that Venom Snake wasn't awake yet. I thought Volgin woke up when Venom did. Finally, an anonymous editor keeps saying that Venom Snake received the "Operation Intrude N313" tape in 1984 but this doesn't make sense. Why would he receive that tape eleven years before the operation took place? Can someone explain all this please? -- 18:54, October 22, 2015 (UTC)

Really? Surprised you missed that. The entire part of the tapes about big boss being confused that he looked awake, with ocelot then saying that he's not actively concious, HEAVILY implies the coma is induced. Then there's also the line "We'll have to wake up your neighbour too", implying that they have control over the state of his coma. As for the Operation Intrude tape, that whole scene should be taken with a grain of salt as Big Boss also walks into a void filled with smoke immediatly after, but we don't regard that as canoniclly happening in the article. Regardless, i'm going to edit the information back in that the coma is artificially induced. Edit: For the future, can we please keep debates inside of the talk page instead of having an edit war? It makes it much easier to resolve and makes it much less confusing for someone viewing the page multiple times. Thanks. 21:15, October 22, 2015 (UTC)
Also not sure of the science behind it, but i've heard of cases of people becoming concious during surgery, even after being dosed with anaesthesia; a.k.a an induced coma. So yes it is possible in some cases. 21:31, October 22, 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I missed it. Shock and awe. Anyway, thanks for the explanation. -- 22:49, October 22, 2015 (UTC)
Hold on a minute. While it's certainly apparent that at the very least the final stages of Venom's coma were induced by Ocelot, that by no means makes the entire 9 year coma induced at all. There's no evidence to suggest that and as such the article shouldn't suggest that the entirety of the coma was induced. Paranoid Donkey (talk) 23:50, October 22, 2015 (UTC)

So did Venom Snake listen to the "Operation Intrude N313" tape in 1984?

An IP keeps saying yes. I thought it was a time skip (why name a tape after an operation that takes place 11 years later?) but the IP says no. Bluerock said use the talk page to avoid edit wars so that's what I'm doing. -- 21:56, October 28, 2015 (UTC)

After Venom Snake is finished listerning to Big Boss, its in the same scene when he takes the tape out and flips it over to see it says Operation Intrude N313, it doesnt go to black between after he listerns to Big Boss and when he flips the tape and sees Operation N313. There is evidence of a time skip after he places it in the bitcorder.

We known that after the timelapse the Diamond Dogs logo changes to Outer Heaven and the conversation between Ocelot and Miller at the end seems to suggest that Diamond Dogs becomes Outer Heaven at the end of The Phantom Pain since Ocelot refers to the Mercenary nation Big Boss is building as "the true Outer Heaven" which suggests that another one exists. We know this conversation occurs in 1984 because Miller refers to the events of "nine years ago" when everything was taken from him. We also know that the scene takes place in Outer Heaven because the snippet from the prologue tells us so. From this we can surmise that Venom Snake and Miller find out the truth shortly after the events of TPP. It does seem a bit strange that Big Boss would outline events that will not occur for another ten years but if you listen to what Ocelot says it seems like he and Big Boss have already started planning their uprising against The Patriots to some degree at least. Maybe the tape is Big Boss laying out his basic game plan to Venom Snake, leaving out details that will be filled in in time when the plan becomes more comprehensive. MOB-4-Life (talk) 22:11, October 29, 2015 (UTC)

At what point should Venom Snake be considered Big Boss?

We all know that even though Venom Snake is not the same Big Boss who was the operative in Operation Snake Eater and the Peace Walker Incident, we can all agree that Venom Snake is worthy of the title Big Boss and it is his title just as much as it is Naked Snake's title.

Would you say he is known as Big Boss when he wakes up from the coma and everyone sees him as Big Boss or when the real Big Boss says "Im Big Boss and you are too", "From here on out youre Big Boss"? Although I guess its up to personal interpretation and personal perspective.

In any case Punsished "Venom" Snake is Big Boss, a title he goes by from the moment he woke up from the coma in 1984 right to the end of his life in 1995 at the hands of Solid Snake. 

Yeah but you're missing a bit thing here; they're both Big Boss, but for the wiki's purposes we need to make the distinction. He's Big Boss as soon as the "legend comes back to life", but the fact of the matter is the Metal Gear chronology is complicated enough without too many "Big Boss" allusions to Venom Snake. Paranoid Donkey (talk) 01:43, October 29, 2015 (UTC)


I saw you put "V" as a nickname for Venom. But in the conversation between Zero and Miller ([4] 2:31), Zero speaks of "V" with reference to Snake / Big Boss, not with reference to Venom.-- 14:03, October 29, 2015 (UTC)

While attributing "V" to Big Boss (e.g. "Vic Boss") sort of makes sense, you ought to realize that Miller didn't even know that Big Boss and Venom Snake were two separate people at this point in time, so Zero was obviously playing with the idea of Big Boss/Venom Snake being one and the same when he was discussing those matters with Miller. DementedP (talk) 13:29, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
While V could refer to the original Big Boss, it was without a doubt a reference to Venom Snake. When he woke up the nurse said on the phone "V has come to". The original Big Boss was already awake by that time. Like DemetedP said both Naked Snake and Venom Snake are both Big Boss in their own right. The conversation between Kaz and Zero leaves it ambigous as to who Zero refers to. The nurse phone call leaves no doubt and confirms that it was without a doubt refering to Venom Snake.


Just one example of cutting down.

From this...

As Snake's legend grew, his activities were noticed by three Soviet commanders -Wialo Company commander, Shago Platoon commander, Wakh Sind Platoon commander. They arranged to meet in Da Wialo Kallai to discuss how they should deal with this new threat. A rebel guerilla faction in Afghanistan learned of that plan and hired Snake to eliminate the commanders during the meeting.

After the soldiers in Da Smasei Laman were turned into puppet soldiers by the Parasite Unit, the Soviets didn't give up on taking the fortress under their control. They sent new troops to Da Smasei and were planning to reinforce them with a lieutenant colonel from Qarya Sakhra Ee and his tank column. Snake recieved a mission to stop these forces from deploying at Da Smasei. He first infiltrated Qarya Sakhra Ee to learn the time of the deployment and the path the reinforcements were taking and then intercepted the column.

The rebel forces in Afghanistan were planning a major offensive against the Soviets. Diamond Dogs were hired to destroy enemy reinforcements that would be moving in during the offensive, and Snake completed the mission.

An unknown client, who claimed to be a survivor from the target's village, requested that Diamond Dogs rescue a Mujahideen fighter named Malak, who was captured by Soviet forces. The client gave Malak's location as the Lamar Khaate Palace.

Snake found out that Malak had been relocated to Yakho Oboo Supply Outpost. At the outpost, Snake found Malak, and brought him to the helicopter. Returning to Mother Base, Malak revealed that he never heard of the client who paid Diamond Dogs to rescue him. Miller suspected that the client was Cipher, who wanted Malak silenced due to him surviving the destruction of his village. To protect Malak, Miller reported that Malak had died in the rescue attempt. Due to Malak losing his home and family, as well as his and Diamond Dogs's shared hatred for Cipher for the suffering they had endured, Malak joined Diamond Dogs. this...

Snake and Diamond Dogs rose to huge heights as they collected resources, expanded their facilities, and swelled their ranks with volunteers and "recruits" forcibly extracted from the field. After being hired by local rebel guerillas, Snake eliminated various Soviet commanders, prevented mechanized forces from being deployed, and rescued captured Mujahideen fighters, steadily learning more about Cipher's activities in the region.

The new paragraph communicates the essentials of the old, without getting bogged down in all the fine mission details that are irrelevant to Venom Snake's character. All that is required is an overview of what he did, not the exact specifics of how he did it. If necessary, those should be detailed in more relevant articles (e.g. missions/events, other character, etc.), but not OCD-style, OTT, word-for-word substitutes for actually viewing/playing the game directly. --Bluerock (talk) 15:23, December 6, 2015 (UTC)

Sorry if my original work caused too much of a problem. I copied and pasted from the event of MGSV to give us something we can use. While some of the events can be shorten and those of no significant can be taken out I dont think we can leave them out. Make them something like this:

Needing to tie up loose ends in the aftermath of Skull Face's death, Snake commenced missions such as recovering a dead informants information on Skull Face's plans, rescuing a CIA informant and recovering Code Talker's research, so that Cipher couldn't recreate the vocal cord parasites.

Snake recaptured the child soldiers who escaped from Mother Base. The instigator Eli then used Rebenok to steal Sahelanthropus and escape with the Mbele Squad.

Short and straight to the point( 15:45, December 6, 2015 (UTC))

Ethnicity depends on player's choice

I noticed that the character's ethnicity is listed as caucasian but the player can choose to make his original appearence a non-caucasian (I chose an African American). Should this be changed?

BigBossmanSnake (talk) 21:54, December 31, 2015 (UTC)

No, as canonically, post-operation, he is caucasian. It doesn't really matter what he looked like pre-op as it's different for every player. Heil the La li lu le lo (talk) 00:03, January 1, 2016 (UTC)

Kojima's comment in the email and it being an error.

Look, guys, Kojima may have been the creator of the Metal Gear series, but he is STILL a human being and fully capable of mistakes. And his claiming Big Boss (NOT Venom Snake, just Big Boss) originally died in Metal Gear was definitely a mistake. The post-credits scene made explicit that Big Boss had in fact survived his fight with Snake (he literally says, and I quote, either "LISTEN! SOLID SNAKE... I'LL NEVER DIE... I'LL GET YOU. ONE DAY. SEE YOU AGAIN..." (MSX2 version) or "...Can you hear me? Solid Snake... I'm not dead... Someday, I'll get even with you. Someday... We will meet again!" (PS2 version). It's the exact same mistake that George Lucas made when he claimed in the Hollywood Reporter that Greedo always shot first in his crossfire with Han Solo, despite the shooting script for the movie stating otherwise that Han had actually shot first (which Lucas should have known since he was the one who wrote said shooting script). That's why mentioning that error is necessary. And for the record, I'm not arguing about whether Venom Snake survived or not. Far from it, I know full well he died (not to mention I wouldn't dare use him for the MSX2 version precisely because he wasn't even invented yet). I was specifically referring to Kojima claiming that Venom Snake's creation was necessary because originally, Big Boss died, completely ignoring the post-credits scene explicitly stating he didn't die at all. And I'll show you the excerpt making this clear: "Following that, he [Hideo Kojima] sent me a personal email that went like this: Early video games never had much of a story. Metal Gear was among the first to add story to its gameplay. The player controls Snake, and together we've told this story over the years. As the series went on, the player jumped between multiple characters like Solid Snake and Naked Snake, and the story evolved into the legend that is the Metal Gear saga. In this final Metal Gear, it was only right to return the role of Snake, the main character, to the player. It's saying that from now on, you make the story. It's saying this is what it means to come full circle and complete a story. If this were a one-way medium like a movie, V's ending wouldn't have been possible, but this was a game. This made it possible. Taking a story we've told together over the years, and placing it in the hands of the player. That was the real intention behind V. If the player wasn't a doppelganger to Big Boss in V, that would have meant Big Boss himself dying later on. And long before V, back in the original Metal Gear, the player (acting as Solid Snake) had in fact killed Big Boss." Emphasis mine, and it makes clear just how little Kojima even knows about his own games, like Lucas doesn't know a thing about Star Wars as Hollywood Reporter made clear here: and how this conflicted with the script as demonstrated here: or here: So long story short, we're keeping this in here. And I don't care if Bluerock is a mod, we're keeping it in, and that's final. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 19:02, January 27, 2016 (UTC)

"So long story short"

Clue: "Too late!"

"And I don't care if Bluerock is a mod, we're keeping it in, and that's final."

Well, Bluerock locked the page to prevent you from editing so that's final. And that wall of text is too long.-- 19:25, January 27, 2016 (UTC)

So what if he's a mod? He's not perfect, and he's not god, and he's not omniscient. Heck, if I were a mod and I decided to alter the article to claim that Venom Snake was a transgender and that he had gay sex with Big Boss, do you really think that my being a mod would make any difference as to whether I'm an idiot by doing that? Of course not, I'd still be an idiot even if I were running the site. Either way, I still think this really needs to be noted, because guess what, that IS a contradiction right there (and I DID get the point behind that statement despite what Bluerock said. What, you think I wouldn't have summarized what he said in there and pointed out what he said if I didn't?). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 19:29, January 27, 2016 (UTC)

Big Boss's/Eli's relationship with Venom

... who viewed him as a friend.

...and follow his commander and friend until his death.

The wiki page currently states that Big Boss canonically, for sure considers Venom to be a friend, when these are just based off of assumptions. There are plenty of other soldiers in those pictures, and it is much more realistic to interpret this as faux camaraderie instead of genuine friendship. It would make more sense to even make a gesture of friendship as an act of manipulation on Big Boss's part. For the sake of simplicity, I get how it is now, but consider that it might not be what we see at face value. 

Now on the topic of Eli, Venom snake did not believe that he was Eli's father. After the paternity test comes out as negative, Venom starts to consider Eli a nuisance more than anything. Eli, on the other hand, is not told this information, and continues to think that Venom is his father. Mishilus (talk) 21:35, April 20, 2016 (UTC)

Fondness for 1980s pop music.

I can't edit the article, but I think in the Personality and Traits section, it would be cool to have a bit to the effect of "He also seemed to have a fondness for contemporary pop music during the Phantom Pain incident.  He would go out of his way to collect cassette tapes of 1980s pop music and listen to them on his Walkman." Graphic36 (talk) 12:42, May 20, 2016 (UTC)

That wouldn't be an appropriate addition, because going out of the way to gather collectables or listen to Walkman music is an optional gameplay feature that the player chooses to carry out, not the character. --Bluerock (talk) 13:12, May 20, 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, agreed. Now, maybe, just MAYBE, if there was a cassette tape or even a radio call where Venom Snake explains he loves 1980s music and wants to find stuff relating to them, that might justify including it in, since at least that has some in-story backing, but otherwise? No, not at all. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 13:21, May 20, 2016 (UTC)
Disarming nuclear weapons is an optional task too, yet it's treated as lore by the MG wiki.Graphic36 (talk) 23:53, May 24, 2016 (UTC)
That's only because there was an actual cutscene dedicated to it, and even there, it's debated whether it should even be treated as such. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 00:14, May 25, 2016 (UTC)
"Lore" or not, nuclear disarmament is presented as a story event. It's not really analogous to finding collectables during gameplay. It would be like saying Solid Snake went out of his way to hold up Gurlukovich mercenaries and steal their dog tags. --Bluerock (talk) 09:33, May 25, 2016 (UTC)

Unlock for editing

Page could do with a bit of a clean up. The games been out for a while, requesting it's unlocked. ThatDamnScottishGuy (talk) 00:14, October 22, 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. Besides, we need to note some bits about him, like his distrust of Huey and noting the hypocrisy of one of the latter's statements. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 00:15, October 22, 2016 (UTC)

I've now unlocked it. But don't add unnecessary fluff about Huey, it's VENOM SNAKE's article. Also, no more dumb Kojima-bashing, which was the original reason for the lock. --Bluerock (talk) 09:12, October 22, 2016 (UTC)
First of all, what I added in earlier wasn't Kojima bashing, it was stating contradictory information about what Kojima said regarding why he had Venom Snake take the fall and what had transpired in the game (ie, he would have known Big Boss was in fact still alive in Metal Gear 1 since he was the one who wrote the game and thus would have known the post-credits scene specifically stated that Big Boss survived the fight). Kojima bashing would be either claiming his mother was a prostitute and his father a certain kind of berry to borrow a Monty Python joke, or otherwise making truly derogatory remarks about him like using "jerk", "egotistical", "***hole", and the like, maybe even infer he should slit his own throat, like what happened to me usually on various internet forums and even here by users. Second of all, the Huey thing does still need to be noted, because when Huey mentioned something about scientists selling out their principles, Venom Snake says in reply "That's rich, coming from you." We're supposed to input any and all information about a character, and last I checked, that was information about a character. Third of all, since you're an editor on Wookieepedia, if pointing out that George Lucas's statement about how Greedo "always shot first" in the Hollywood Reporter was conflicted with the shooting script for the film can make it into the Han Shot First article, I see absolutely no reason why pointing that bit out can't be used here. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 09:30, October 22, 2016 (UTC)
I misunderstood your point about Huey, as I thought that YOU wanted to note Huey's hypocrisy, rather than remark that VENOM noted it. Just keep it brief, and don't labor on the point; nobody wants to re-read all the dialogue/actions taken verbatim from the game, when a short summary suffices. There's enough of that in the article already.
Also, it's pointless to nitpick a quote, translated from Japanese, of a third party's recollection of an e-mail, relayed in their own words, probably adding their own thoughts, and then try to infer that Kojima himself is a liar or stupid (as evident from your arguments in both the edit history and this talk page). It doesn't have to be as extreme as the examples you give, but it's still bashing the guy all the same. Nojima/Kojima's point concerning the meta elements of the player-character relationship still stands, regardless of whether he/they meant that Big Boss was killed in a literal sense (as depicted on screen), or just in a figurative/thematic sense (i.e. ended/eliminated). It's just quibbling over semantics at the end of the day.
--Bluerock (talk) 14:24, October 22, 2016 (UTC)
I may have made clear my issues with Hideo Kojima in the talk page and the edit summaries, but even if I sung praises for the guy and treated him like God, with absolutely no calling him out on the issue, I'd STILL note the inherent inconsistency with it, precisely because it is that, an inconsistency. The fact of the matter is, he didn't remember the ending of Metal Gear where Big Boss made clear he survived the fight, which either way doesn't present Kojima in a good light. I know if I were in Kojima's shoes and I were to say something like he did regarding that event, I'd fully EXPECT people to consider me either a liar or stupid, because I know I was one of either option due to it not matching up. My idea of truth is that it is to be applied absolutely literally and exactly. He should have kept it at the player-character relationship strictly, not go into how if Venom Snake never happened, Big Boss would have been killed. That's what I would have done, not even delve into the possibility of what would happen if we didn't create Venom Snake under a lore standpoint. Besides, how is that any different from what Lucas said regarding the Greedo edit in the Hollywood Reporter? Weedle McHairybug (talk) 16:50, October 22, 2016 (UTC)
Nope, not going through this again. --Bluerock (talk) 17:44, October 22, 2016 (UTC)
Can you at least address how this is different from George Lucas stating Greedo always shot first even when the shooting script stated otherwise? I genuinely cannot understand how it's different between that and that, especially when Wookieepedia noted that exact bit (and you're an editor there, so you would know about it). If it's going to be forbidden to even mention that in the article, at least tell me why the situation with Lucas is different, since the latter was clearly allowed on Wookieepedia, so I'd understand the difference. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 19:45, October 22, 2016 (UTC)
I'm not getting embroiled in an argument over whether Lucas was wrong or not, but at least he was being interviewed directly. You can't attribute that specific statement of Nojima's to Kojima, especially when it's not clear whether Nojima is directly referencing Kojima's e-mail in the second paragraph (where the statement occurs). And even if he is, whether he's using "killed" in the literal sense. Unlike the Lucas thing, where they're dissussing the actual specific details and execution of a scene. --Bluerock (talk) 00:18, October 23, 2016 (UTC)
Okay, fair enough. I wonder if there's a way to get Nojima's contact information and see if he would release the email publicly? The only way we'd know for certain is if the email appears directly on the internet to be read by everyone, right at the source. Maybe even have Arkhound translate it if it is released in Japanese. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 00:24, October 23, 2016 (UTC)
Alright well I added some pictures about pre-venom Medic. Put tags up to remind readers that Venom's canon appearance is player determinant. It just helps with the wiki to have something to use visually. ThatDamnScottishGuy (talk) 19:11, October 24, 2016 (UTC)
I've reverted such edit, I'll explain why I feel they shouldn't be added until a general consensus can be approved. Venom Snake by definition has no canon pre-determined appearance thus making it somewhat forced to allow one's character created avatar on the mainspace article, especially seeing with the race variety of the character's pre-surgery appearance, I get you've used the same avatar face for consistency but it's still by definition your canon idea of the character, whereas for example if I made my avatar black with blond hair, that'd be my canon definition of the character. By technicality, even though you mentioned it's a player determined appearance it still break the idea of it being player determined nature and should be viewed as canon, due to Venom Snake's article being part of the main series canon, from what I've checked of the history for the page, other users have objected to adding player determined content such as eye colour, hair, etc.

Visually, yes it'd help but honestly it's something I personally would rather be absent because a user could come on here and go "Oh hey, this place has someone's avatar in the article, I'll add mine to the gallery". If anything I'd relay it to Bluerock before it's added, seeing as he (to my knowledge) is the only active admin at this current time. It just seems like it'd complicate more than it'd help, the model used in GZ was nothing more than a placeholder to throw off the whole twist of VS not being the real BB. Swalko (talk) 12:55, October 25, 2016 (UTC)

Hmm I understand, but i'm looking at this objectively. It's not like i'm using my own avatar, this is as close to the placeholder as possible. I get why you'd rather not have them, but I think the article would benefit from them. The medic in GZ and Phantom Pain was, at one point, just a medic. The face reveal, the plastic surgery, this is all very important to his character. I think if we avoid any of that it would actually damage the article. Within the concepts of the game, he's a faceless avatar. But it doesn't do the chracter or the wiki justice to portray him as such on here. Now, like I say, this isn't my avatar. I'm not trying to argue that mine's anymore canon than anyone else's. But the best thing we can do for the article, is not avoid these scenes in the game. The best look to use would be the placeholder as it's actually a unique face and it both accomplishes the objective of being both as canon and official as we can get in the situation, as well as providing a substitute to using another player's created avatar. Arguable we could ask someone to mod the game and put the Ground Zeroes medic head onto Venom's body for these scenes to get it even closer, but that's modifying the game and I'll let Admins decided if that's a viable option. Otherwise this is the best, most objective option. ThatDamnScottishGuy (talk) 16:00, October 25, 2016 (UTC)

Don't you think guys that Venom Snake looks a lot like Guts from Berserk? I mean, they both lack the right eye, they both have a prosthetic hand in the left arm that works like a weapon too, and they both were commanders of a mercenary group in which they all died on a singular event. There are more similarities but i don't remember them all, so  you are free to tell what do you think. GokuSsjAf (talk) 06:54, November 15, 2016 (UTC)

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