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  • i know the wikia say its canon, but its done by fans and i guess they could make a mistake. but anyway, i ve seen SO MANY information contradicting itself that i dont even know anymore.

    theres an interview of that Atsushi dude saying its canon and another of kojima saying its just platinum game's take on what happened to raiden after MGS4.

    is it just MPO all over again?

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    • It is canon, but Kojima doesnt approve the future that we have seen in Rising(because it's a platinum* vision, and he(Kojima) will never go further MGS4 chronologically). Frankly, Kojima should shut up. If MGS4 wasnt the way it is, Rising would be different. It's Kojima fault. 

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    • oh, i see, THANKS! but i dont think its his fault, its his franchise, and didnt he get threatened to make MGS4?

      But for now ill just see the game as a 'ghost babel'.

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    • But Ghost Babel isn't canon.

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    • He only said it's a parralel story. That means it's a spin-off.

      In other words: the events happened in MGS universe, but aren't rellevant.

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    • not canon, confirmed by kojima himself

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    • 201.222.150.231 wrote: not canon, confirmed by kojima himself

      Actually, he only said he doesn't personally thought of the end of MGS4 that way. He did nonetheless consider it canon, and Korekado most certainly did consider it canon (and honestly, if Kojima really felt it was non-canon, he would have forced Korekado to make an apology on the air).

      And Kojima really should remember that it was Kojima Productions who wrote the story, as that podcast made clear (the only thing Platinum was responsible for was the character designs and the gameplay, that's it).

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    • Will Remain Canonical in my heart.

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr4r7cqtdMQ

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    • 1 - Kojima word/opinions about Metal Gear canon means shit right now because he out of Konami and the franchise.

      2-  Rising doesnt contradict anything from past games, in fact, it has more respect for the lore than The Phantom Fail

      3-  KONAMI'S OFFICIAL JAPANASE Metal Gear Rising website has a timeline with MGR on it as a direct continuation of Metal Gear Solid 4 and new chapter of the Raiden Saga.

      4. Konami has the final say what is canon or not, not the fans.

      5- MGSV was awful and only the most idiotic Kojima supporters would defend that trash

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    • 186.62.2.104 wrote: 1 - Kojima word/opinions about Metal Gear canon means shit right now because he out of Konami and the franchise.

      2-  Rising doesnt contradict anything from past games, in fact, it has more respect for the lore than The Phantom Fail

      3-  KONAMI'S OFFICIAL JAPANASE Metal Gear Rising website has a timeline with MGR on it as a direct continuation of Metal Gear Solid 4 and new chapter of the Raiden Saga.

      4. Konami has the final say what is canon or not, not the fans.

      5- MGSV was awful and only the most idiotic Kojima supporters would defend that trash

      1. Agreed. At BEST, his words only mean anything for the games at the time they were made by him.

      2. Also agreed there, and you probably should also add Peace Walker, 4, MGS1, heck, possibly even 2 and 3 in there as well since they also conflicted with various parts of the overall chronology in major ways.

      3. That pretty much settles it, as if Kojima Productions itself saying it was canon wasn't evidence enough.

      4. Yeah, and Kojima certainly doesn't have a final say now either.

      5. Agreed with that (well, at least with the story being trash), and Peace Walker and 4 weren't much better either.

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    • Konami doesn't have the final say on Hideo Kojima's story. Any further Metal Gear productions will simply be a new story in the vein of Rising, which just uses Kojima's prior work as a base from which to take the franchise in new directions.

      Everyone should quit the Kojima and/or Konami-bashing and just move on. Enjoy what you enjoy. Disregard what you do not. The fan idea of "canon" is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things (real-life), and is only used as a framework for structuring the Wiki around, for narrative consistency. Also, shame on all of you who insult fans who have a personal preference for an unpopular game, be it MPO or MGSV.

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    • Bluerock wrote: Konami doesn't have the final say on Hideo Kojima's story. Any further Metal Gear productions will simply be a new story in the vein of Rising, which just uses Kojima's prior work as a base from which to take the franchise in new directions.

      Everyone should quit the Kojima and/or Konami-bashing and just move on. Enjoy what you enjoy. Disregard what you do not. The fan idea of "canon" is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things (real-life), and is only used as a framework for structuring the Wiki around, for narrative consistency. Also, shame on all of you who insult fans who have a personal preference for an unpopular game, be it MPO or MGSV.

      Honestly, when we've got narratives that actually have continuity, made clear they have continuity (eg, MGS2 heavily referencing MGS1, for example, or even how MGS3 is heavily referenced in the Big Boss games), that's by definition "canon". Want a series that DOESN'T have any canon at all between various installments? Try the Final Fantasy franchise, that game has a game that is completely divorced from each predecessor or successor in terms of storyline, completely devoid of ANY continuity other than reusing certain names and positions such as Cid. In fact, probably the closest thing there is to canon is Gilgamesh and Dissidia: Final Fantasy, the former is solely because of Gilgamesh's trip through the void having him go through certain areas and even having him recall events from FFV (and there are some where it's debatable as to whether they are even canonical anyhow like with FFVI's appearance), and the latter's a crossover fighting game series that has each game essentially erasing the prior from existence.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Bluerock wrote: Konami doesn't have the final say on Hideo Kojima's story. Any further Metal Gear productions will simply be a new story in the vein of Rising, which just uses Kojima's prior work as a base from which to take the franchise in new directions.

      Everyone should quit the Kojima and/or Konami-bashing and just move on. Enjoy what you enjoy. Disregard what you do not. The fan idea of "canon" is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things (real-life), and is only used as a framework for structuring the Wiki around, for narrative consistency. Also, shame on all of you who insult fans who have a personal preference for an unpopular game, be it MPO or MGSV.

      Honestly, when we've got narratives that actually have continuity, made clear they have continuity (eg, MGS2 heavily referencing MGS1, for example, or even how MGS3 is heavily referenced in the Big Boss games), that's by definition "canon". Want a series that DOESN'T have any canon at all between various installments? Try the Final Fantasy franchise, that game has a game that is completely divorced from each predecessor or successor in terms of storyline, completely devoid of ANY continuity other than reusing certain names and positions such as Cid. In fact, probably the closest thing there is to canon is Gilgamesh and Dissidia: Final Fantasy, the former is solely because of Gilgamesh's trip through the void having him go through certain areas and even having him recall events from FFV (and there are some where it's debatable as to whether they are even canonical anyhow like with FFVI's appearance), and the latter's a crossover fighting game series that has each game essentially erasing the prior from existence.

      I don't think they are relevant to Konami.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote: Honestly, when we've got narratives that actually have continuity, made clear they have continuity (eg, MGS2 heavily referencing MGS1, for example, or even how MGS3 is heavily referenced in the Big Boss games), that's by definition "canon".

      You missed the point. I'm saying that Kojima "canon" and Konami "canon," for lack of better terms, are separate from one another, even though the latter is not totally divorced from the former. Hence, "overall" canon is portrayed on the Wiki as a mesh of both, while highlighting what info originates from where. It's a difficult concept to grasp for people who want all fictional works in a series to be in one big, nice and tidy continuity, but this is rarely ever the case for decades-long franchises, and the sooner people stop getting so worked up over such things, the better.

      One thing's for sure. I'll continue enjoying to play MGR, regardless of it being Platinum Games' "interpretation" of the Metal Gear world.

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    • Bluerock wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote: Honestly, when we've got narratives that actually have continuity, made clear they have continuity (eg, MGS2 heavily referencing MGS1, for example, or even how MGS3 is heavily referenced in the Big Boss games), that's by definition "canon".

      You missed the point. I'm saying that Kojima "canon" and Konami "canon," for lack of better terms, are separate from one another, even though the latter is not totally divorced from the former. Hence, "overall" canon is portrayed on the Wiki as a mesh of both, while highlighting what info originates from where. It's a difficult concept to grasp for people who want all fictional works in a series to be in one big, nice and tidy continuity, but this is rarely ever the case for decades-long franchises, and the sooner people stop getting so worked up over such things, the better.

      One thing's for sure. I'll continue enjoying to play MGR, regardless of it being Platinum Games' "interpretation" of the Metal Gear world.

      Glad to see you enjoyed MGR. Blade Wolf was cool.

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    • Bluerock wrote:
      Konami doesn't have the final say on Hideo Kojima's story.

      Sorry but no, Konami are the owners of the franchise and they have the final say on everything, even on Kojima stories, this is not different compared to the current Lucasfilm Canon Story Board case, they can retcon any parts of the Star Wars saga, even Lucas movies, Solo being a married man is one of the many examples of that.

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    • 186.62.2.104 wrote:

      Bluerock wrote:
      Konami doesn't have the final say on Hideo Kojima's story.

      Sorry but no, Konami are the owners of the franchise and they have the final say on everything, even on Kojima stories, this is not different compared to the current Lucasfilm Canon Story Board case, they can retcon any parts of the Star Wars saga, even Lucas movies, Solo being a married man is one of the many examples of that.

      Hideo Kojima's original story will always exist, regardless of what Konami does. Any future Konami productions will not be part of Kojima's story. Konami can do whatever they like (have their "final say") with their own "canon," sure. But it will always exist apart from Kojima's universe, just as the sequel trilogy exists apart from Lucas's trilogies (to employ the over-used Star Wars analogy).

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    • Bluerock
      Bluerock removed this reply because:
      off-topic/irrelevant
      20:15, February 27, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Bluerock wrote:

      186.62.2.104 wrote:

      Bluerock wrote:
      Konami doesn't have the final say on Hideo Kojima's story.

      Sorry but no, Konami are the owners of the franchise and they have the final say on everything, even on Kojima stories, this is not different compared to the current Lucasfilm Canon Story Board case, they can retcon any parts of the Star Wars saga, even Lucas movies, Solo being a married man is one of the many examples of that.

      Hideo Kojima's original story will always exist, regardless of what Konami does. Any future Konami productions will not be part of Kojima's story. Konami can do whatever they like (have their "final say") with their own "canon," sure. But it will always exist apart from Kojima's universe, just as the sequel trilogy exists apart from Lucas's trilogies (to employ the over-used Star Wars analogy).

      I wouldn't be so sure about that. See, if that was truly the case, then any deviances from the plot would have Kojima going all Queen of Hearts "Off with their heads" to anyone who deviated even slightly from his vision literally (and I do mean the appropriate use of the word. I mean he actually would commit murder for extremely petty reasons relating to that). Same with Star Wars.

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    • considering that Kojima doesn't give a shit about the canon I don't think Konami can make it worse than he did

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    • Bluerock
      Bluerock removed this reply because:
      off-topic/irrelevant
      20:15, February 27, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Bluerock wrote: Hideo Kojima's original story will always exist, regardless of what Konami does. Any future Konami productions will not be part of Kojima's story. Konami can do whatever they like (have their "final say") with their own "canon," sure. But it will always exist apart from Kojima's universe, just as the sequel trilogy exists apart from Lucas's trilogies (to employ the over-used Star Wars analogy).

      I wouldn't be so sure about that. See, if that was truly the case, then any deviances from the plot would have Kojima going all Queen of Hearts "Off with their heads" to anyone who deviated even slightly from his vision literally (and I do mean the appropriate use of the word. I mean he actually would commit murder for extremely petty reasons relating to that). Same with Star Wars.

      Only extremist fundamentalists kill people over different view points, so that comment is slanderous. Kojima has never harbored such ill will, nor any real negativity towards MGR at all.

      If you treat a fictional franchise with such religious reverence, that that's the only scenario you can envision when you disagree with someone else's creative decisions, then I feel very sorry for you.

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    • Bluerock wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Bluerock wrote: Hideo Kojima's original story will always exist, regardless of what Konami does. Any future Konami productions will not be part of Kojima's story. Konami can do whatever they like (have their "final say") with their own "canon," sure. But it will always exist apart from Kojima's universe, just as the sequel trilogy exists apart from Lucas's trilogies (to employ the over-used Star Wars analogy).

      I wouldn't be so sure about that. See, if that was truly the case, then any deviances from the plot would have Kojima going all Queen of Hearts "Off with their heads" to anyone who deviated even slightly from his vision literally (and I do mean the appropriate use of the word. I mean he actually would commit murder for extremely petty reasons relating to that). Same with Star Wars.

      Only extremist fundamentalists kill people over different view points, so that comment is slanderous. Kojima has never harbored such ill will, nor any real negativity towards MGR at all.

      If you treat a fictional franchise with such religious reverence, that that's the only scenario you can envision when you disagree with someone else's creative decisions, then I feel very sorry for you.

      He certainly did harbor such ill will with the NES version, even when some of the changes were for pragmatic reasons. He actually breached Japanese politeness to make clear his hatred for that game twice. And quite frankly, when he goes out of his way to erase anything not made by him and treat them as non-existent even when they actually TRY to keep continuity unlike him, that's essentially the same thing.

      And I'm not even thinking extremist fundamentalism, I'm thinking more along the lines of how, say, Commander Red treats even those who fail to dodge his cat ("The last person to walk through that door lost an eye. Needless to say, he's no longer with us." from The Legend of a Dragon), or how Ernst Blofeld does things with his henchmen. Heck, for a more related example, even how the Patriots treated their own henchmen regarding rebellion or otherwise their deviating even slightly from their plans in any way shape or form (eg, their causing the Tanker Incident simply because RAY allegedly was made without their consent, Colonel's overall actions to Raiden in the Big Shell Incident, the S3 Plan being a response to Shadow Moses, even what Otacon said about them when telling Snake to trust Drebin).

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Bluerock wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Bluerock wrote: Hideo Kojima's original story will always exist, regardless of what Konami does. Any future Konami productions will not be part of Kojima's story. Konami can do whatever they like (have their "final say") with their own "canon," sure. But it will always exist apart from Kojima's universe, just as the sequel trilogy exists apart from Lucas's trilogies (to employ the over-used Star Wars analogy).

      I wouldn't be so sure about that. See, if that was truly the case, then any deviances from the plot would have Kojima going all Queen of Hearts "Off with their heads" to anyone who deviated even slightly from his vision literally (and I do mean the appropriate use of the word. I mean he actually would commit murder for extremely petty reasons relating to that). Same with Star Wars.
      Only extremist fundamentalists kill people over different view points, so that comment is slanderous. Kojima has never harbored such ill will, nor any real negativity towards MGR at all.

      If you treat a fictional franchise with such religious reverence, that that's the only scenario you can envision when you disagree with someone else's creative decisions, then I feel very sorry for you.

      He certainly did harbor such ill will with the NES version, even when some of the changes were for pragmatic reasons. He actually breached Japanese politeness to make clear his hatred for that game twice. And quite frankly, when he goes out of his way to erase anything not made by him and treat them as non-existent even when they actually TRY to keep continuity unlike him, that's essentially the same thing.

      And I'm not even thinking extremist fundamentalism, I'm thinking more along the lines of how, say, Commander Red treats even those who fail to dodge his cat ("The last person to walk through that door lost an eye. Needless to say, he's no longer with us." from The Legend of a Dragon), or how Ernst Blofeld does things with his henchmen. Heck, for a more related example, even how the Patriots treated their own henchmen.

      You're basically comparing Kojima to the Islamic State. And who cares about Dragon Ball Z or Blofeld?

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    • 173.65.88.28 wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Bluerock wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Bluerock wrote: Hideo Kojima's original story will always exist, regardless of what Konami does. Any future Konami productions will not be part of Kojima's story. Konami can do whatever they like (have their "final say") with their own "canon," sure. But it will always exist apart from Kojima's universe, just as the sequel trilogy exists apart from Lucas's trilogies (to employ the over-used Star Wars analogy).

      I wouldn't be so sure about that. See, if that was truly the case, then any deviances from the plot would have Kojima going all Queen of Hearts "Off with their heads" to anyone who deviated even slightly from his vision literally (and I do mean the appropriate use of the word. I mean he actually would commit murder for extremely petty reasons relating to that). Same with Star Wars.
      Only extremist fundamentalists kill people over different view points, so that comment is slanderous. Kojima has never harbored such ill will, nor any real negativity towards MGR at all.

      If you treat a fictional franchise with such religious reverence, that that's the only scenario you can envision when you disagree with someone else's creative decisions, then I feel very sorry for you.

      He certainly did harbor such ill will with the NES version, even when some of the changes were for pragmatic reasons. He actually breached Japanese politeness to make clear his hatred for that game twice. And quite frankly, when he goes out of his way to erase anything not made by him and treat them as non-existent even when they actually TRY to keep continuity unlike him, that's essentially the same thing.

      And I'm not even thinking extremist fundamentalism, I'm thinking more along the lines of how, say, Commander Red treats even those who fail to dodge his cat ("The last person to walk through that door lost an eye. Needless to say, he's no longer with us." from The Legend of a Dragon), or how Ernst Blofeld does things with his henchmen. Heck, for a more related example, even how the Patriots treated their own henchmen.

      You're basically comparing Kojima to the Islamic State. And who cares about Dragon Ball Z or Blofeld?

      I also made sure to cite the Patriots as another example regarding people who did this who WEREN'T extremist fundamentalists.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      173.65.88.28 wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Bluerock wrote:


      Weedle McHairybug wrote:


      Bluerock wrote: Hideo Kojima's original story will always exist, regardless of what Konami does. Any future Konami productions will not be part of Kojima's story. Konami can do whatever they like (have their "final say") with their own "canon," sure. But it will always exist apart from Kojima's universe, just as the sequel trilogy exists apart from Lucas's trilogies (to employ the over-used Star Wars analogy).

      I wouldn't be so sure about that. See, if that was truly the case, then any deviances from the plot would have Kojima going all Queen of Hearts "Off with their heads" to anyone who deviated even slightly from his vision literally (and I do mean the appropriate use of the word. I mean he actually would commit murder for extremely petty reasons relating to that). Same with Star Wars.
      Only extremist fundamentalists kill people over different view points, so that comment is slanderous. Kojima has never harbored such ill will, nor any real negativity towards MGR at all.

      If you treat a fictional franchise with such religious reverence, that that's the only scenario you can envision when you disagree with someone else's creative decisions, then I feel very sorry for you.

      He certainly did harbor such ill will with the NES version, even when some of the changes were for pragmatic reasons. He actually breached Japanese politeness to make clear his hatred for that game twice. And quite frankly, when he goes out of his way to erase anything not made by him and treat them as non-existent even when they actually TRY to keep continuity unlike him, that's essentially the same thing.

      And I'm not even thinking extremist fundamentalism, I'm thinking more along the lines of how, say, Commander Red treats even those who fail to dodge his cat ("The last person to walk through that door lost an eye. Needless to say, he's no longer with us." from The Legend of a Dragon), or how Ernst Blofeld does things with his henchmen. Heck, for a more related example, even how the Patriots treated their own henchmen.

      You're basically comparing Kojima to the Islamic State. And who cares about Dragon Ball Z or Blofeld?
      I also made sure to cite the Patriots as another example regarding people who did this who WEREN'T extremist fundamentalists.

      Can you please stop using capital letters to make your point?

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    • Bluerock wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Bluerock wrote: Hideo Kojima's original story will always exist, regardless of what Konami does. Any future Konami productions will not be part of Kojima's story. Konami can do whatever they like (have their "final say") with their own "canon," sure. But it will always exist apart from Kojima's universe, just as the sequel trilogy exists apart from Lucas's trilogies (to employ the over-used Star Wars analogy).

      I wouldn't be so sure about that. See, if that was truly the case, then any deviances from the plot would have Kojima going all Queen of Hearts "Off with their heads" to anyone who deviated even slightly from his vision literally (and I do mean the appropriate use of the word. I mean he actually would commit murder for extremely petty reasons relating to that). Same with Star Wars.
      Only extremist fundamentalists kill people over different view points, so that comment is slanderous. Kojima has never harbored such ill will, nor any real negativity towards MGR at all.

      If you treat a fictional franchise with such religious reverence, that that's the only scenario you can envision when you disagree with someone else's creative decisions, then I feel very sorry for you.

      True, he even co-wrote Jamais Vu which made Raiden the main star. His ill will is towards PO which he had Miller say was "crap".

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote: He certainly did harbor such ill will with the NES version, even when some of the changes were for pragmatic reasons. He actually breached Japanese politeness to make clear his hatred for that game twice. And quite frankly, when he goes out of his way to erase anything not made by him and treat them as non-existent even when they actually TRY to keep continuity unlike him, that's essentially the same thing.

      And I'm not even thinking extremist fundamentalism, I'm thinking more along the lines of how, say, Commander Red treats even those who fail to dodge his cat ("The last person to walk through that door lost an eye. Needless to say, he's no longer with us."), or how Ernst Blofeld does things with his henchmen.

      I also thought the NES version was "crappy." I'm not going to kill the developers because I didn't like it. What an unhealthy line of thinking.

      Kojima didn't erase anything, he just didn't acknowledge things he hadn't written himself. That doesn't mean he "hated" the games, or that they didn't "happen," he just felt they didn't fit in with his story. So don't twist the facts because of your personal disagreement over his creative direction. It's very unprofessional.

      Blofeld and Commander Red? This isn't even worth a response.

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    • Bluerock wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote: He certainly did harbor such ill will with the NES version, even when some of the changes were for pragmatic reasons. He actually breached Japanese politeness to make clear his hatred for that game twice. And quite frankly, when he goes out of his way to erase anything not made by him and treat them as non-existent even when they actually TRY to keep continuity unlike him, that's essentially the same thing.

      And I'm not even thinking extremist fundamentalism, I'm thinking more along the lines of how, say, Commander Red treats even those who fail to dodge his cat ("The last person to walk through that door lost an eye. Needless to say, he's no longer with us."), or how Ernst Blofeld does things with his henchmen.

      I also thought the NES version was "crappy." I'm not going to kill the developers because I didn't like it. What an unhealthy line of thinking.

      Kojima didn't erase anything, he just didn't acknowledge things he hadn't written himself. That doesn't mean he "hated" the games, or that they didn't "happen," he just felt they didn't fit in with his story. So don't twist the facts because of your personal disagreement over his creative direction. It's very unprofessional.

      Blofeld and Commander Red? This isn't even worth a response.

      Ah, yeah, actually, he DID hate the games he didn't make, or have you forgotten that each one of the entries that weren't made by him, he had Miller acting as if he never heard of it (and this is DESPITE the Jamais Vu mission featuring references to Rising, INCLUDING, I should add, playing as Raiden himself), not to mention the fact that he didn't even include them in the Legacy Collection or claiming only his games are what mattered, even when he had absolutely no problem including the DGN for MGS1 and MGS2 despite their clearly not being made by him (and don't give me the whole "it's to have people follow the storyline if it's too hard for them" excuse he gave. 1. People have access to the internet to follow the storyline anyways, so that shouldn't matter in either way, and 2., if he was true to his word about it only including games HE made, he wouldn't have included them in the first place specifically BECAUSE they weren't made by him, regardless of whether it makes people follow the story [and besides, the DGN for MGS2 doesn't even follow the story of MGS2 at all and if anything made Raiden even more of a wimp than in MGS2 and seemed to have Solid Snake steal his spotlight which was just downright disgraceful, so if anything it's feeding any newcomers a spoonful of lies].)? I'm not twisting anything, I'm citing EXACTLY what he has stated and demonstrated in his actions and words.

      Him simply not making the games is NOT an excuse to treat them like dirt and encouraging people to ignore them (and yes, that's EXACTLY what he's doing when he not only managed to use a timeline claiming that MPO and MGRR aren't even on there, but even has Miller outright tell you to ignore those games if you use a specific spotlight on them). The guy who made the Mega Man franchise never made Mega Man X6, and in fact, it was largely made without his permission, and it even conflicted with his vision for the series (he intended for Zero to be dead and then revived in Mega Man Zero, and have X be the bad guy). Did he end up disowning it and treating it like crap? No. He not only counted it as canon nonetheless, but he even went as far as to modify his Mega Man Zero concept specifically to take into account X6. That's a man who actually DOES have respect even to those who make games without his input, something Kojima doesn't despite his claims to being that. He constantly claims that he wants others to take over for him, yet whenever someone DOES do that, he basically dismisses their work in his own works, and I don't just mean him simply saying it isn't a direction he personally would have gone down with, I mean his ACTIVELY making sure none of those games gets a mention on the timeline or even on any easter eggs where they if anything make it seem as though they are non-canon, so really, he's a hypocrite.

      I may not have much liking to the NES version myself, but guess what, at least I won't insult the people who made the game and ruthlessly destroy their work, UNLIKE Kojima. And I certainly won't deny their being canon or tell people to ignore them if they at least fit into the chronology.

      And for the record, the Patriots at least are warranting of a response since they are directly related to Metal Gear.

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    • 173.65.88.28 wrote: His ill will is towards PO which he had Miller say was "crap".

      Not necessarily. He could have been referring to their rundown mercenary camp on the Barranquilla coast, practically the same location as San Hieronymo. It's only been an assumption that Miller was ever expressing Kojima's opinion on the MPO.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote: [...]

      Weedle, you are not worth the time of day. Silly me, for trying to bring a sense of perspective to this discussion. Believe whatever you want to believe, but don't trash talk people and put words in their mouth.

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    • Bluerock wrote:

      173.65.88.28 wrote: His ill will is towards PO which he had Miller say was "crap".

      Not necessarily. He could have been referring to their rundown mercenary camp on the Barranquilla coast, practically the same location as San Hieronymo. It's only been an assumption that Miller was ever expressing Kojima's opinion on the MPO.

      True, but Miller not recognizing MPO or MGRR's labels and the spotlight not working on those games' labels is certainly indicative of Kojima's own opinion on those games. And quite frankly, that just makes Kojima a extremely petulant hypocrite. He said he wanted people to take over, yet in the few games where they actually DO take over, he dismisses them. Had it been me who said that I wanted other people to take over, and someone did this, I would actually let them and thus keep my word, and even incorporate it into canon and even let the spotlight work on them so long as they at least fit into continuity.

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    • Bluerock wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote: [...]

      Weedle, you are not worth the time of day. Silly me, for trying to bring a sense of perspective to this discussion. Believe whatever you want to believe, but don't trash talk people and put words in their mouth.

      I never put words in his mouth, I cited EXACTLY what he said and did. If I wanted to put words in his mouth, I would have claimed he said Solid Snake was actually a transgender, even when there's literally nothing saying such is the case. No, I cited plenty of times where he said it. You don't want to recognize it, that's your problem, because I DID make sure I cited it as accurately as possible. Oh, I so can't wait for the whole Event FOB prizes to be fully distributed, and the MGO3 equipment to be fully distributed, because once that happens, I'm out of here.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote: True, but Miller not recognizing MPO or MGRR's labels and the spotlight not working on those games' labels is certainly indicative of Kojima's own opinion on those games. And quite frankly, that just makes Kojima a extremely petulant hypocrite. He said he wanted people to take over, yet in the few games where they actually DO take over, he dismisses them. Had it been me who said that I wanted other people to take over, and someone did this, I would actually let them and thus keep my word, and even incorporate it into canon and even let the spotlight work on them so long as they at least fit into continuity.

      That just means he's a human being who can change his his mind. You can't present one scintilla of proof that he actually "hated" those games. So drop the Kojima-bashing just because he isn't as completely obsessed with continuity as you are.

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    • Bluerock wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote: True, but Miller not recognizing MPO or MGRR's labels and the spotlight not working on those games' labels is certainly indicative of Kojima's own opinion on those games. And quite frankly, that just makes Kojima a extremely petulant hypocrite. He said he wanted people to take over, yet in the few games where they actually DO take over, he dismisses them. Had it been me who said that I wanted other people to take over, and someone did this, I would actually let them and thus keep my word, and even incorporate it into canon and even let the spotlight work on them so long as they at least fit into continuity.

      That just means he's a human being who can change his his mind. You can't present one scintilla of proof that he actually "hated" those games. So drop the Kojima-bashing just because he isn't as completely obsessed with continuity as you are.

      Changing minds aren't exactly exclusive to humans. Animals have changed their minds. Gods have changed their minds. Heck, even machines have changed their minds (The Patriots certainly did, at least changing their plans if they realized an unexpected outcome may actually benefit them even better in the long run).

      And for the record, his having Miller specifically not acknowledging those games means he DID hate them. Heck, he even made clear he only acknowledges the games HE made, and even included the DGNs despite explicitly stating only stuff he directly made would be included in the Legacy Collection, and this is despite making clear with MGS4 that MPO needs to be finalized first, or how he had repeatedly stated that he wanted others to continue the franchise. There's changing your mind, and there's being a massive hypocrite, and that, unfortunately, is the latter.

      And for the record, Bluerock, stop going with the whole "it's not professional" bit, because this is a forum, not a Wiki article. I'll keep my low opinion of Kojima off the actual articles, but not on the forums, since they are NOT related to editing the wiki pages, not directly, anyways. That's the talk pages' part.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      I never put words in his mouth, I cited EXACTLY what he said and did.

      You cited what he did, not what he said/thought/opined. You gave me your own interpretation of those because you clearly have a very different line of thinking to Kojima, as you've repeatedly pointed out yourself.

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    • Bluerock wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      I never put words in his mouth, I cited EXACTLY what he said and did.

      You cited what he did, not what he said/thought/opined. You gave me your own interpretation of those because you clearly have a very different line of thinking to Kojima, as you've repeatedly pointed out yourself.

      No, I also cited exactly what he said, like with that Tumblr post SolidKenny gave a while back giving the full translation of that statement in MGSV:GZ, and have you forgotten that even Kojima himself said in his commentaries (I think for MGS2) that many of his characters are in fact mouthpieces for his own personal views? Well, going what he said there, that means if Miller said MPO and MGRR aren't important and we should ignore them, and the spotlight doesn't work on erasing them, they aren't canon. Not to mention I also cited that bit regarding MGRR conflicting with his vision of MGS4.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Bluerock wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      I never put words in his mouth, I cited EXACTLY what he said and did.
      You cited what he did, not what he said/thought/opined. You gave me your own interpretation of those because you clearly have a very different line of thinking to Kojima, as you've repeatedly pointed out yourself.
      No, I also cited exactly what he said, like with that Tumblr post SolidKenny gave a while back giving the full translation of that statement in MGSV:GZ, and have you forgotten that even Kojima himself said in his commentaries (I think for MGS2) that many of his characters are in fact mouthpieces for his own personal views? Well, going what he said there, that means if Miller said MPO and MGRR aren't important and we should ignore them, and the spotlight doesn't work on erasing them, they aren't canon. Not to mention I also cited that bit regarding MGRR conflicting with his vision of MGS4.

      So PO and Rising didn't happen. Get over it.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote: Changing minds aren't exactly exclusive to humans. Animals have changed their minds. Gods have changed their minds. Heck, even machines have changed their minds (The Patriots certainly did, at least changing their plans if they realized an unexpected outcome may actually benefit them even better in the long run).

      Pedantry/trolling.

      Weedle McHairybug wrote: And for the record, his having Miller specifically not acknowledging those games means he DID hate them.

      Opinion.

      Weedle McHairybug wrote: And for the record, Bluerock, stop going with the whole "it's not professional" bit, because this is a forum, not a Wiki article. I'll keep my low opinion of Kojima off the actual articles, but not on the forums, since they are NOT related to editing the wiki pages, not directly, anyways. That's the talk pages' part.

      Twisting the facts and presenting it as truth is unprofessional, wherever you do it. You should conduct yourself as you would in person, not slander people just because "it's the internet."

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    • 173.65.88.28 wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Bluerock wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      I never put words in his mouth, I cited EXACTLY what he said and did.
      You cited what he did, not what he said/thought/opined. You gave me your own interpretation of those because you clearly have a very different line of thinking to Kojima, as you've repeatedly pointed out yourself.
      No, I also cited exactly what he said, like with that Tumblr post SolidKenny gave a while back giving the full translation of that statement in MGSV:GZ, and have you forgotten that even Kojima himself said in his commentaries (I think for MGS2) that many of his characters are in fact mouthpieces for his own personal views? Well, going what he said there, that means if Miller said MPO and MGRR aren't important and we should ignore them, and the spotlight doesn't work on erasing them, they aren't canon. Not to mention I also cited that bit regarding MGRR conflicting with his vision of MGS4.

      So PO and Rising didn't happen. Get over it.

      When he said that he wants others to take over his work, and then he dismisses their work simply because it wasn't made by him DESPITE saying they should take over his work, that's not something you can just "get over", since it proves he's not a man of his word. Suppose someone told you something, then when you do exactly what they told you to do, they dismiss it out of hand for no real reason, violating their end of the bargain, would you be happy in any way about that? I don't know about you, but most people would feel very betrayed by that statement, and would rightly condemn that person as being a hypocrite.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote: When he said that he wants others to take over his work, and then he dismisses their work simply because it wasn't made by him DESPITE saying they should take over his work, that's not something you can just "get over", since it proves he's not a man of his word. Suppose someone told you something, then when you do exactly what they told you to do, they dismiss it out of hand for no real reason, violating their end of the bargain, would you be happy in any way about that? I don't know about you, but most people would feel very betrayed by that statement, and would rightly condemn that person as being a hypocrite.

      The teams who made the spin-offs have never expressed being upset over it. Probably because it's not the HUGE deal you make it out to be. You, who have had NO hand in making those games, should take their example and enjoy their work regardless.

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    • Bluerock wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote: When he said that he wants others to take over his work, and then he dismisses their work simply because it wasn't made by him DESPITE saying they should take over his work, that's not something you can just "get over", since it proves he's not a man of his word. Suppose someone told you something, then when you do exactly what they told you to do, they dismiss it out of hand for no real reason, violating their end of the bargain, would you be happy in any way about that? I don't know about you, but most people would feel very betrayed by that statement, and would rightly condemn that person as being a hypocrite.

      The teams who made the spin-offs have never expressed being upset over it. Probably because it's not the HUGE deal you make it out to be. You, who have had NO hand in making those games, should take their example and enjoy their work regardless.

      That's only because in Japan, it's bad form to talk back to a superior. Do you REALLY think they would risk talking badly to Kojima like that when those guys have families to feed? They can't even rely on online message boards to do it since they're constantly monitored, like that report on Konami revealed where if someone so much as even very subtly implied they may not like their current job, they get harassed. If this had been an American doing that, there definitely would have been a firestorm of sorts.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote: That's only because in Japan, it's bad form to talk back to a superior. Do you REALLY think they would risk talking badly to Kojima like that when those guys have families to feed? They can't even rely on online message boards to do it since they're constantly monitored, like that report on Konami revealed where if someone so much as even very subtly implied they may not like their current job, they get harassed. If this had been an American doing that, there definitely would have been a firestorm of sorts.

      I have no idea. And neither do you. It's speculation. My point is that you can have your opinion, but you have to move on to more important things in life.

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    • Bluerock wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote: That's only because in Japan, it's bad form to talk back to a superior. Do you REALLY think they would risk talking badly to Kojima like that when those guys have families to feed? They can't even rely on online message boards to do it since they're constantly monitored, like that report on Konami revealed where if someone so much as even very subtly implied they may not like their current job, they get harassed. If this had been an American doing that, there definitely would have been a firestorm of sorts.

      I have no idea. And neither do you. It's speculation. My point is that you can have your opinion, but you have to move on to more important things in life.

      It's not opinion, though, it's fact. Kojima made it very clear what he was doing with both his actions and his words. And you know the old saying, actions speak far louder than words. And don't go David Hume on me, because he's one of the reasons science is ruined.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote: It's not opinion, though...

      Weedle McHairybug wrote: And for the record, his having Miller specifically not acknowledging those games means he DID hate them.

      Hmm...

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    • Bluerock wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote: It's not opinion, though...

      Weedle McHairybug wrote: And for the record, his having Miller specifically not acknowledging those games means he DID hate them.

      Hmm...

      Kojima already made very clear in multiple sources that the characters statements are HIS personal views, so it IS fact that he thinks that. Just ask those Metal Gear Solid 2 commentaries or even his statements about the Metal Gear Core Saga if you don't believe me.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote: Kojima already made very clear in multiple sources that the characters statements are HIS personal views, so it IS fact that he thinks that. Just ask those Metal Gear Solid 2 commentaries or even his statements about the Metal Gear Core Saga if you don't believe me.

      Doesn't mean he "hates" them. Or that he even dislikes them.

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    • I'm gonna say this, that point about Kaz's comments in GZ when you point the light at certain games. I took that as cheeky pokes, not flat-out hatred infused dismissal of them. More like, while he may or may not like them or accept their canonicity, he accepts them into the MG universe.

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    • I find funny on how Kojima likes to crap on PO and Rising, considering both games have better characters and plot (yes, even Rising) compared to MGSV.

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    • 186.62.2.114 wrote:
      I find funny on how Kojima likes to crap on PO and Rising, considering both games have better characters and plot (yes, even Rising) compared to MGSV.


      similar to George Lucas hating the new star wars film, when it too has better dialogue, they just hate it due to it not being made by them.

      I can understand that PO and Rising may deviate from Kojima's vision but talking crap about them is kinda asshole-ish

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    • He views them the same as he does Ghost Babel or Acid. Just side-stories. I'm amazed how many people interpret "that's not how I'd do it" to "I hate this crap! RARH!" Ha ha!

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    • Bluerock wrote: He views them the same as he does Ghost Babel or Acid. Just side-stories. I'm amazed how many people interpret "that's not how I'd do it" to "I hate this crap! RARH!" Ha ha!

      Except unlike Ghost Babel and Ac!d, those games actually DID fit into the chronology.

      Besides, not making the games is NOT an excuse to basically try to disown them (and that's EXACTLY what he did with those bits with the spotlight and Miller's comments. If he was truly concerned with ambiguity, he'd have Miller say "can't see what the fuss is all about with those games, but oh well, the light works" and have the light work despite not being one of the core 8). Keiji Inafune, for example, did not make Mega Man X6 (and in fact, it actually conflicted with his plans for Mega Man Zero). Did he up and out disowned the game just because he wasn't involved? Heck, no! He counted it as fully canon regardless, and actually altered his planned story for the first Mega Man Zero specifically to take X6 into account. If Kojima was anything like he claimed to be regarding actually respecting people's works, he would have behaved like Inafune.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote: [...]

      As I said, amazed...

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Bluerock wrote: He views them the same as he does Ghost Babel or Acid. Just side-stories. I'm amazed how many people interpret "that's not how I'd do it" to "I hate this crap! RARH!" Ha ha!

      Except unlike Ghost Babel and Ac!d, those games actually DID fit into the chronology.

      Besides, not making the games is NOT an excuse to basically try to disown them (and that's EXACTLY what he did with those bits with the spotlight and Miller's comments. If he was truly concerned with ambiguity, he'd have Miller say "can't see what the fuss is all about with those games, but oh well, the light works" and have the light work despite not being one of the core 8). Keiji Inafune, for example, did not make Mega Man X6 (and in fact, it actually conflicted with his plans for Mega Man Zero). Did he up and out disowned the game just because he wasn't involved? Heck, no! He counted it as fully canon regardless, and actually altered his planned story for the first Mega Man Zero specifically to take X6 into account. If Kojima was anything like he claimed to be regarding actually respecting people's works, he would have behaved like Inafune.

      Again with the rambling and BS about Mega Man games no one cares about. Jesus, take the hint.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Keiji Inafune, for example, did not make Mega Man X6 (and in fact, it actually conflicted with his plans for Mega Man Zero). Did he up and out disowned the game just because he wasn't involved? Heck, no! He counted it as fully canon regardless, and actually altered his planned story for the first Mega Man Zero specifically to take X6 into account. If Kojima was anything like he claimed to be regarding actually respecting people's works, he would have behaved like Inafune.

      You've made that point twice now, as if you're implying that because Kojima didn't alter his vision for his story, means he hates MPO and MGR. Yet I just don't see it.

      Kojima clearly had a plan in place, chances are MPO and MGR simply didn't fit perfectly into his plan. That doesn't mean he dismisses them flat out, he just doesn't include them into his canon.

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    • 173.65.30.80 wrote: Again with the rambling and BS about Mega Man games no one cares about. Jesus, take the hint.

      It's not just that, but the absurd expectation that Kojima just has to think and act identically to other people, like some kind of mindless robot. Kojima is renowned as a bit of an eccentric who does his own thing, whether or not it ultimately makes for a good game.

      The Snake Soup has some good articles that sum up a lot of my feelings on Kojima, MGR/MPO, Phantom Pain, the convoluted canon, and closure for long-time fans of the series:

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    • Bluerock wrote:

      173.65.30.80 wrote: Again with the rambling and BS about Mega Man games no one cares about. Jesus, take the hint.

      It's not just that, but the absurd expectation that Kojima just has to think and act identically to other people, like some kind of mindless robot. Kojima is renowned as a bit of an eccentric who does his own thing, whether or not it ultimately makes for a good game.

      The Snake Soup has some good articles that sum up a lot of my feelings on Kojima, MGR/MPO, Phantom Pain, the convoluted canon, and closure for long-time fans of the series:

      Hey, Weedle is mentioned in the first article. This is why you never use you real name online. Anyway, thanks for the links.

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    • The franchise can only go up from here I think.

      Seriously, I never gonna understand the PW,GZ,TPP trilogy, i mean, ¿what was Kojima trying to do with these games? Everything is a huge filler

      PW is barely relevant in the grand scheme of things, a low selling little story released in a dead system, MGSV not only is a side story at best but also makes PW even more irrelevant: MSF is nothing more than an filler army the is never mentioned in the future, characters like Chico Paz, Amanda are pretty much killed or forgotten in the 25 minutes long GZ mission, Strangelove is killed off screen.

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    • 186.62.2.114 wrote: The franchise can only go up from here I think.

      Seriously, I never gonna understand the PW,GZ,TPP trilogy, i mean, ¿what was Kojima trying to do with these games? Everything is a huge filler

      PW is barely relevant in the grand scheme of things, a low selling little story released in a dead system, MGSV not only is a side story at best but also makes PW even more irrelevant: MSF is nothing more than an filler army the is never mentioned in the future, characters like Chico Paz, Amanda are pretty much killed or forgotten in the 25 minutes long GZ mission, Strangelove is killed off screen.

      That's the problem with having the same protagonist after they've already had a good run, and is true in any long-runnnig franchise). You essentially have to wind things "back to zero" on occasion. This happened to some extent in MGS4 with Solid Snake, and was partially/wholly the reason why Raiden was introduced back in MGS2. But everybody wants to be Snake! So we have to build the mercenary army again from scratch. Kojima therefore puts a lot of focus on the game's themes, rather than the specific plot points (e.g. nuclear deterrence, endless cycles of revenge, men becoming demons, etc.).

      I get the impression MSF is never mentioned by name due to the similarity with the real MSF (Medicins Sans Frontieres), since they had to put a disclaimer on the HD Edition of Peace Walker. And I don't think having all the characters return is absolutely necessary if the writer can't find an interesting role for them in the story, but at least they weren't totally forgotten.

      To an extent, all games set between MGS3 and MG1/2 are filler, because we already know the core reason behind Big Boss's change. Some feel more like filler than others, but that's largely down to personal preference. If the franchise "goes up" from here, it will be because the new writers do the smart thing and create a new continuity. It might as well be a new franchise, but the "Metal Gear" name will continue because it sells.

      Anyway, rather than go further off topic, I'll end with the view that thinking of MGR in terms of being "truly canon" is the completely wrong approach to take. Just enjoy if for the silly Hollywood-style, hack-n-slash, kinda-canon spinoff that it is.

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    • I dunno, if MGS 6 (yes, 6, fuck roman numerals) uses the post-Patriot world created by Rising, I think its canoncity cant be denied anymore, hell Konami doesnt have problems acknowledging Rising in the timeline.

      The game was silly, just like any other metal gear title, but I think despite being an over the top hack and slash game, MGR is actually the only game the advanced the overall metal gear universe and lore since 2008, the worldbuilding is there, a War World 3 scenario was stopped by Raiden, PMC are on the rise again, poor people are being used as guinea pigs, we learned that high ranking politicians like Armstrong and other PMC were aware of The Patriots actions, cyborgs are becoming more and more dangerous not to mention on being discriminated like Jack case.

      Whoever wrote Rising really did set a cool staring fresh point for a new saga, if Konami or the new writers plays their cards right, we can easily have a cool Deus Ex esque cyber punk stealth action game MGS game imo.

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    • Okay, for one MGS5 was great, it tried something new and it worked. But thats not what this discusion was for. MGR IS to be considered cannon. SADLY Kojima dosen't own Metal Gear and he's out of a job. If Konami says i's cannon than it's cannon. I enjoyed the game reguardless. Since on the wiki it's to be considered cannon on the page for EXCELSEUS someone whould remove that top banner that says it might not be cannon. I would but i don know how and dont want to eff anything up.

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    • Diddle dorp wrote: Since on the wiki it's to be considered cannon on the page for EXCELSEUS someone whould remove that top banner that says it might not be cannon. I would but i don know how and dont want to eff anything up.

      The banner doesn't say it might not be canon, it says it has some level of canonicity. It's a compromise based on the various statements issued by Konami/Kojima.

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    • Bluerock wrote:

      Diddle dorp wrote: Since on the wiki it's to be considered cannon on the page for EXCELSEUS someone whould remove that top banner that says it might not be cannon. I would but i don know how and dont want to eff anything up.

      The banner doesn't say it might not be canon, it says it has some level of canonicity. It's a compromise based on the various statements issued by Konami/Kojima.

      That, as well as Kojima/Kojima Productions.

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    • just quit speculating the plots.don't give a damn crap about plots. MGS PW is best, TPP is fun,Rising is fun fun!,MPO is Great,Ghost Babel is also great. Kojima doesn't mean he hate MPO and Rising.

      cause there seperate to his Solid Saga since he's not very involve making the two games and there haft canon, rising was his original idea and he wouldn't hate it since he is the one who gave the idea to platinum and Portable ops is basically Metal Gear Online well he took inpiration to make PW the whole capture soldiers thing. Rising and MPO are canon but kojima didn't make them since he can't own the two games and taking much credit, he would not put it as part of his games even he did involve developing them. Ac!d and Ghost Babel are spins offs but they are Non-Canon because Ghost Babel would contradict MGS2 and Ac!d would too contradict Risings timeline. 

      basically don't speculate the whole Canon thing. since it's obvious that MPO and Rising are the canon spin offs of the series and have fun playing them. besides Side stories are much fun making more dept. filler is much greater to have. unlike those Nerdy people who hate fillers since the main story could wait and adds suspension and fun. what matter is themes and Moonsoon's Memes.

      i was hype for rising 2 but oh boi what we have here when kojima is out. a largely reused Assets of the unfinished TPP (they should have not rush things). making you want to play Ac!d even more. 

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    • A FANDOM user
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